Possibly.
As we’ve seen with Texas A&M’s attempt to move on to the SEC, departing Big 12 members haven’t exactly been able to just waltz out on the conference at their leisure. The Baylor Four (Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas State and Kansas) have made things especially difficult for the Aggies by not signing over the waiver to pursue litigation.
While Baylor’s case to prove damages in A&M’s departure may seem like a long shot, it did send a clear warning shot to Oklahoma and Oklahoma State, whose potential package deal to the Pac-12 also appeared to be on the western horizon.
A&M’s departure would be a devastating blow to the Big 12, but its survival depends on OU and Texas. If the Sooners leave, Baylor may have a more significant case to pursue legal action.
That may not stop OU, though. OrangeBloods.com’s Chip Brown reports this morning that Oklahoma will look to apply for Pac-12 membership by the end of this month, a source close to the school’s administration has said. Oklahoma State is expected to follow.
The source states that OU is “fed up with Big 12 instability” and is prepared to move on with or without Texas.
But it’s important to recap the legal processes that need to occur if Oklahoma and Oklahoma State were to depart. As evident by commissioner Larry Scott‘s comments last Friday, the Pac-12 won’t publicly pursue any kind of expansion with the possibility of a tortious interference lawsuit on the other end. It’s why SEC officials met weeks ago to publicly downplay the possible addition of A&M.
On the surface, A&M needed to “come to the SEC” first; the same goes for the Pac-12 and Oklahoma/Oklahoma State.
It doesn’t mean that the two haven’t spoken privately, or that the Pac-12 wouldn’t pick up the phone if the Sooners call. Provisions in the Pac-12′s new multi-billion TV rights contract with ESPN and FOX allow the two parties to “revist the deal” in the event of expansion. Additionally, it’s been reported before that the Pac-12 will not stand by idly if the conference realignment shift begins in earnest.
But for that shift to begin, Oklahoma would have to send its notice of withdrawal to the Big 12, although Kirk Bohls of the Austin-American Statesman indicates that may not be allowable until A&M leaves. If Oklahoma’s goal is to leave the Big 12 by the end of September like Brown indicates, we would expect that notice to come within a couple weeks provided the all-clear comes for A&M.
One might reasonably expect some serious legal threats from several Big 12 members to follow. As OU and UT hold the key to the Big 12′s survival, any legal roadblock could be both ugly and drawn out. There’s certainly no guarantee that the Baylor Four would end up in a BCS conference if this whole conference realignment shakes out to its fullest extent.
Would that be enough to convince OU to stay? Last time we heard, the Sooners were still the only school left pondering over the idea of equal revenue sharing in the Big 12 in what appears to be another Hail Mary attempt to keep the conference together.
Then again, Big 12 commissioner Dan Beebe was able to keep the conference together last summer, even if it was by a thin layer of glue and some duct tape.
If there’s one thing we’ve learned about the realignment drama, nothing is ever a “done deal” until the ink on the contract is dry.
This both excites me and frustrates me.
I understand why OU wants the PAC-12 (academics, more stability, able to be successful in the current conference make up, a “coast” exposure)…. but culture wise – nothing in common and the only “local” member of the PAC-14 would be OK State.
That’s a lot of travel expenses for every OU sport to go to the west coast……
Kirk Bohls is reporting that “a UT group including its president and two ADs flew to Norman on Sunday for last-ditch effort to try to keep OU in the Big 12. Texas didn’t notify Texas Tech about trip to Norman; OU, OSU hungry for Pac-12 membership, but A&M-to-SEC move must come first.”
That last bit it the sticky part. If A&M-to-SEC must come first and the SEC won’t take them unless the Baylor Four won’t sign the legal waivers (I wouldn’t either), then how can any of this happen? Do the Aggies and Sooners get together and jointly plan an exit strategy?
Centexhorn,
saw that too. Right now this whole thing is at a cluster-you-know-what standstill.
According to folks in College Station, even “dry ink” doesn’t mean much!
Either Oklahoma OR Texas to the Pac-12 makes no sense whatsoever. Anyone I talk to that thinks that says that sounds great is only thinking about watching games on Saturdays in the Fall. They have no thought or concept about the logistics/time zones/travel time for ALL of their sports teams to compete in the Pac-16. A nightmare! How often do you think the Pac-16 Conference tournaments will hit OKC or Austin? Dallas? THis whole thing is a joke and most all commenters are only looking at one sport and one school when forming an opinion. No one knows where all the dominos fall and can say with any certainty that the end result will be better.
I really wish Chip Brown hadn’t reported this. I want it to be right.
The Big XII is dissolving, not because of Texas A&M, Nebraska, Colorado, Oklahoma, or even Texas.
The fault lies with Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and Missouri. They let Texas make all the decisions. They allowed the Big Eight to be washed away and replaced with what Texas wanted in a conference. The old Big Eight teams wanted to stick it to Nebraska. From 1991 through the formation of the Big XII, the old Big Eight teams were getting murdered by a legendary run by the Huskers. So they sided with Texas on everything, constant 11-1 votes. No loyalty.
They are getting exactly what they signed up for.
All depends upon A & M peaceably being able to go where it wants to: the SEC. If A & M is not allowed to go the SEC by Baylor and their hypocritical leadership, not only will Oklahoma and others be apprehensive in making decisions that they wish to make but other schools (perhaps Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Florida State, as well as others) will put off any consideration of making any moves.
Baylor, who has not generated much, if any, funds for the Big 12, 1o, 9, 8….3, 2, 1, 0 but has been on the receiving end of multi-millions will not have the gravy train any longer and may well push themselves into a situation where they don’t have the money nor a conference.
You can’t have a conference of 12 teams and allow 1 team to steer the ship then wonder why people start jumping off for other, balanced ships.
I don’t understand the logistical concerns over Oklahoma joining the PAC-12. They will play the majority of their games against opponents in the Mountain Time Zone (Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, and Colorado). Yes there is whopping two hour difference between Oklahoma and USC/UCLA, but it’s just not that big of deal. Some of the travel distances will be longer, but it’s not like all the Big 12 schools were bunched closely together. Any school west of the Mississippi has to travel long distances to play their games, that’s just the way it is.
How often do I think PAC-12/14/16 tournaments will be held in Oklahoma or Texas? About as often as they’ll be held in Denver, San Francisco, or Phoenix. There’s no logical place to play a PAC-(insert number here) game, the conference is so big geographically, which means every city will end up hosting a basketball tournament eventually.
As for football, the championship game is not on a neutral field, it goes to the team with the best record, and I bet that would assure Oklahoma of an extra home game pretty often.
sportsinhd: Thanks for the post. Makes so much sense. The last sentence is very informative to us. That would indeed give Oklahoma home field advantage fairly often, particularly if they play the “powers” of the PAC-12/13/14.
We are hoping (and doing more things) that LSU would schedule Oklahoma field on field or one game at Jerry’s World in the next few years. The first game of the season would be nice.
Have you looked at a map lately? Most road trips now no longer than 5.5 hours or 1 hour by plane. Only exception Iowa State – 9 hours by car. Pac-16 road trips – over 1/2 half greater than 1,500 miles by car and up to 3.5 hours by plane.
txniner: whew! That is something we hope Oklahoma is considering. Maybe they could instead join the SEC, it would be less traveling, with greater competition.
We have taken several trips to California over the past several years and with the cost of fuel being what it was and is, that should be a big consideration.
We know they have very lucrative football programs but bringing the large amount of people–players, coaches, support staff (doctor, trainers, etc.) and others–that could be quite expensive to regulary week after week, play teams along the Pacific coast and nearby.
Question for the people who may know the legality/what determines a viable AQ BCS conference…IF OU, OSU, TX and A&M(Big 4) all leave the B12, is it still an ” AQ conference” and does Baylor actually have a legal ground to stand on?
If all the above leave then how can Baylor/rest of B12 afford or care to sue? There would be nothing left when the dust settles. Baylor gets a few million or split b/n the remainder of the teams left but who would care the “Big 4″ would be gone and most certainly the conferences AQ to the BCS.
Regions and travel distance don’t mean anything now that the schools are as rich as they are.
They can afford to send the players from New York to LA without even feeling it.
TCU is no where near most or all of the Big East schools.
Didn’t hear any talk of that fact in whether they would join or not.
It would be nice if A&M could find a solid countersuit claim to use on Baylor and its blackmail schemes. Real justice would be for Baylor to be left without a conference and wind up getting knocked down to Division II. It’s long past time their president started reaping as he sows.
“boomerdt”, travel expenses are relative; most teams have their own private plane(s) for travel and hotel costs are hotel costs, they’re relatively minor compared to the revenue generated.
“txniner”, the only flaw in your argument relative to ALL sports is $$money$$. football is the sport that generates enough of it to fund virtually every other non-revenue generating sport on campus. minor inconvenience to travel west considering the benefits (read: revenue) that football will generate; especially when considering equality in the Pac-12 revenue sharing plan.
You obviously don’t know anything about the ecnomics of college athletics and have no concern at all for the student-athelte that has to travel all these distances. I guess that whole thing is out the window! And, for the record, TCU to the Big East makes no sense at all either.
The problem is – it’s a free-for-all. No one entity is in charge and chaos is about to reign. Every man for himself will be taken to a new level. Anyone that criticizes Baylor or the other Big 12 schools for not wanting to be burned by the A&M departure fails to give them credit for doing what everyone else claims to be doing – looking out for themselves. As long as that’s the only criterion, this whole thing will be one big CF ad lot’s of people will be harmed.
Deb: That will happen, even oftentimes beginning in this life. If this continues much longer, A & M may well consider this.
Did Oklahoma make the same assurances as Baylor said A & M did to continue to support the Big 12/10, 9, 8….3, 2, 1, 0? If so, are the hyprocrites at Baylor going to sue Oklahoma? Did they sue Colorado and Nebraska or threaten to?
pabstman: JT or Ben may have that answer.
txniner & boomerdt-
thanks for your “right on” comments. Oklahoma to the PAC 12? Absurd.
You might as well stick Washington in the SEC or USC in the ACC.
Taking in Colorado and Utah from the Rockies stretched the limits of the PAC and we are happy where we are right now. Regionally, academically and athletically things are great in the PAC. Let the dust settle before we make any more changes.
College sports are not immune from the economic and resource problems facing the universities, and in fact all of America, today. Time to face reality.
But we do wish the best to the members of the Big 12 and other conferences with membership issues, and we hope they work them out peacefully. We just don’t want to be involved with their problems.
pabst,
1) thank you for having a beer worthy of Clint Eastwood’s character in “Grand Torino” in your username. Now, on to your question:
First, let’s get this out of the way: the BCS will have another meeting (I believe) within the next year or so to determine which conferences are worthy of an automatic BCS invite based on a formula they created. As long as UT and OU are in the Big 12, there will be an auto invite.
Secondly: If Texas or OU leaves, the Big 12 will absolutely dissolve and there isn’t any reason to suspect otherwise at this point. You can’t determine who is going to sue who right now, but the “grounds” or the “damages” would be that Baylor, and/or anyone else who didn’t end up in an AQ home, would then be deprived of hundreds of millions of dollars in BCS bowl payouts and TV contract payouts. That’s the case they would try and push. That’s why Baylor is holding their waiver to pursue litigation against the SEC now. The only difference is it’s close to impossible to prove that A&M leaving will cause ESPN/FOX to cut off their TV contract with the Big 12, or that the conference will cease to exist because of A&M’s departure.
Hope this helps.
Shame on you webfoot. I only like this for one reason, and that is football. How many times since the BCS came into existence has the Pac been shafted by a “weak conference?” As (true)Ducks fans, we were the 1st team to get the shaft by the BCS at he beginning of last decade. Any combination of both OK schools plus any 2 Texas schools (including A&M) bring instant credibility to our championship game. How many times have we seen a Big12 or SEC doormat team jump several spots in the polls just for having the honor of losing to Florida or Texas in a conference championship game? Then they get the boost in BCS ratings for a quality win to top it off. That doesn’t sit right with a lot of folks.
sportsinhd may think that Arizona and Arizona State being in the Mountain time zone means just an hour difference, but Arizona does not use daylight time and so for most of the year (March through November) it is on the same time as the Pacific time zone (a two hour difference from Norman). And, yes, the football and basketball teams will travel on the private plane, but what about all the other teams (of course, they don’t really matter, so what was I thinking).
Friday I night I stayed up till 1am local to watch Missouri take on Arizona State. Have fun with that Oklahoma School fan base.
I’ll say it again. The University Presidents & AD’s benefit at the expense of the fans and non-revenue student athletes.
Not sure how much travel some of you do. But when I was traveling a lot it took me a couple days to adjust to a west coast trip. Arizona is 2 hours behind 8 months out of the year because they don’t observe DST.
Thanks for speaking for everyone who is a PAC-12 fan doug. I think there are a lot of us who want the conference to grow. Adding Oklahoma and Oklahoma State makes the conference better, it’s as simple as that. It’s not like the PAC-12 as currently constructed makes a ton of geographic sense (Colorado screws up the whole equation.)
The “student athlete” arguments are ridiculous txniner. The major conferences are a farm system for the NFL. Yes, there are some student-athletes who take advantage of the student part, but is an extra hour on the plane going to affect the grades of a kid at Stanford, Vanderbilt, or Duke? I think not, it borders on insane to think so.
With states and the federal government stupidly cutting college budgets left and right universities need to do everything possible to maximize revenues, super conferences are a step in that direction. A yearly showdown between Oklahoma and USC!?!?! Are you kidding me!?! That would be huge, awesome, please insert superlative here.
I wish the members of the Big 12 well, I don’t wish the conference well. The faster it dies the faster we can stop worrying about this stuff and focus strictly on football.
Why would a team be forced to adjust to a new time zone on a two day trip? Let your team sleep in, you’ll be playing later anyways. I don’t get the argument. You fly out on friday, you leave after the game on saturday. Some of you are turning mountains into molehills. I live on the West Coast and visit the East Coast often, I just don’t schedule any meetings in the morning.
Ben,
No problem, been pounding pabst as hard as Clyde’s right hand (yes that is a reference to Any Which Way You Can or Every Which Way but Loose).
I see now, so it’s not a simple, “we r suing you for 10 or 20 million” b/c that’s what it cost to leave the B12 but we are suing you for what we (Baylor and anyone else who may not end up in an AQ conference) will lose for the foreseeable future.
So if somehow Baylor or other B12 teams end up in another AQ conference, or retain somehow their AQ status then there would be no grounds for a lawsuit…So in other words OU, A&M, etc… need to find Baylor/B12 some dates/new teams?!?!
OU and Texas “officials” are meeting today to discuss future. It doesn’t look good for the Big XII…. And Baylor needs to just shut up. Baylor can restart the little SWC with other similar schools that they “may” be able to compete with.
pabst,
Yes and no, and please, take this as an explanation as I understand it to be; I’m in no way, shape or form a law guy:
Any team who would sue would be suing for damages — the money lost as you said. However, even if Baylor (for example) ends up in an AQ conference, there can still be grounds sue for damages because, again, it’s about whatever they lose financially.
Again, that’s how I understand it to work and I’m sure it’s far more complex than that.
My head hurts….
This move would be awesome not just for OU or the PAC-12, but for college football period.
The BCS system would have to be revised, but these move’s would allow for a true number 1 to be named at the end of the year!
OU and OkSt stand to gain a lot by moving to the Pac where the yearly payout is currently at $21 million per school from the ESPN/FOX deal. And the regional networks are supposed to add $10-20 million per year to that. They currently make somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 million in the Big12, so we’re talking about a HUGE increase in revenue! The grass is actually greener out West.
Ben, FYI, you’re absolutely right. Baylor’s future participation in another conference, be it AQ or not, has no bearing on this particular matter. This matter stands on its own merit and only pertain to damages sustained specifically by A&M leaving. The problem Baylor will have is PROVING that A&M leaving actually caused them damages. If the TV deal were altered because of A&M leaving, yeah, MAYBE they could cite that. There biggest problem to overcome is Beebe’s big mouth. Remember, he publicly stated “the conference will NOT be harmed” by A&M leaving. As the head of the conference, and the person most responsible for its financial success, and the financial success of its members, his statement (in a court of law) would carry great weight.
Baylor suing the SEC for damages is like a jilted husband suing his wife’s new lover for alienation of affection. And it has about that much chance of succeeding.
First, it’s been well-established that A&M approached the SEC, so how can you sue the SEC for damages? They didn’t lure A&M away. Second, if Baylor didn’t sue Colorado or Nebraska, it can be argued they’ve forfeited their right to protest. You can’t pick and choose which schools to sue for leaving. Either all schools are allowed to leave or all must be forced to stay. Finally, Beebe was empowered by the member schools to speak for the Big 12 when he announced the conference didn’t need A&M and would suffer no damages if the school left. Once their representative says A&M’s departure won’t hurt the Big 12, how can they argue it will?
If Baylor were capable of attracting an invitation to a BCS school on their own, they wouldn’t be so desperate to cling to Oklahoma and A&M’s coattails. Since they’re not, maybe they shouldn’t be allowed to play that level of competition by piggy-backing on bigger and better programs. It would serve them right if the end result of this is that they wind up without a conference.
It is too bad that OU seems locked onto the Pac-whatever. There are no natural competition games and OU will be looked as “on-the-outside” for a long time. Further, all sports would be played with the PAC, so there would be tremendous travel considerations. OU would be better off if they could build the Big XII into a 16 team conference by trying to add BYU, TCU, Air Force, Iowa, Arkansas, LSU, Colorado State, and others within a reasonable commute. I know that some of these teams are committed to their conference, but you don’t know if you don’t try.
This is a giant issue, the thread will continue in various sites for months. Important for us to talk about.
dannyok, good points, thanks for making them clear.
squaksduckhawk, sorry, but I don’t feel the least bit ashamed, but thanks for the well-intentioned recommendation. As a Duck– and PAC 8/10/12 fan for a pretty long time I guess I have a right to voice a well-considered opinion. Your main argument seems to be the old “we don’t get any respect out West” complaint, a whine I’m tired of. I guess our bowl records suggest we do get plenty of invites to play against some pretty tough opponents and don’t always win.
Bringing in an Oklahoma or Texas to make our PAC 1? look tougher so their success will make folks will take us more seriously is crazy — if we want the PAC 12 to have more prestige it’s up to us to win it on the field, not import a “ringer.”
sportshind, first, I’m worried about your cynical attitude towards the whole concept of the student-athlete. You seem ready to throw up your hands and accept complete crass commercialism rather than working to reduce the ethical problems facing big-time college sports. When that happens I’ll give up and turn to the NFL.
Second, while I’m not “speaking for everyone”, comparing Commissioner Scott’s low-key reaction to the Oklahoma question to his earlier dog-in-heat lust after Utah and Colorado suggests he isn’t all that excited as you seem to be.
From my long-term perspective I see that while we have laid a good foundation with the PAC 12, we have a lot of significant issues that are more pressing than expansion, which would bring a whole new set of issues. Questions about illegal recruiting and reimbursements, TV deals, about academic problems, university economics, about paying athletes, institutional jealousies, fan disillusionment, significant injuries to athletes, etc. all deserve a high priority from institutional decision makers.
Right now the college sports scene in booming with all the TV money pouring in for the winners. It’s like a real estate boom, and all the fast-money boys are trying to cash in quick. .
However, remember that five years ago the housing market was booming too, then it crashed, surprising the experts and crushing many innocent people.
So lets’ see how this new year for the PAC 12 goes, work out the kinks, and avoid getting ahead of ourselves and risking ruining a really good deal.
Especially not with teams from the Southwest.
NCAA Realignment… it is happening fast. May include a 12th Div-1 conference, Goal Cost conference… 4 super conferences, 8 major conferences, 16 divisions, and 15 playoff/ bowl games…
The picture of the brackets are out on the internet.
Not many Sooners on this line. BUT, as a Sooner since the late 1960′s, I can say I regret the passing of the Big 12, though I hated the Big 8′s demise even more. Things change, time passes; I guess that’s why I’m as old as I am. I lived 9 years in the West (USAF) and can orient to how things exist Pacific or Mountain Time. I think there are great schools in the PAC? to establish new rivalries with (OK, with which to establish new rivalries) and it will be an exciting time. Even OU is a bit tired of the Texas greed and we will be happy to go West with or without them, though the Cowpokes will definitely be at our side. I am not sure why you wanted Colorado though they were always good for a win. They had very little to offer in the minor sports or basketball, where the Oklahoma schools are strong. None of us would mind going to the SEC, either, though it would be a battle every year just to win the division crown. Just to let you westerners know that we respect the competition out there (can’t forget that USC national championship rout, Ouch) but you will also get your money’s worth in all athletics, as well as academics. OU’s president, Mr Boren, is a Rhode’s scholar, former governor and former senator and we have prospered under him. (Look up OU’s superb collection of Impressionist and classic Taos/Santa Fe art.) I look forward to adding some PAC 16 championships to our collection.